Curse

syphonus · Sep 27, 2009, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Taking WoTA with with Crit Agi is p pointless unless you suck at covering enchants and it's getting stripped constantly.

WoTA isn't being used for IAS at all. It's for the additional +22% crit chance, assuming 13 in CS.

FoxBat · Sep 27, 2009, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Crit eye is at least as good emanage and isn't elite.

syphonus · Sep 27, 2009, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Crit eye is at least as good emanage and isn't elite.

Sure. I'm suggesting you take both. While they don't synergize perfectly, it still adds up to something like +47% crit hits. It means that you will nearly always be hitting for critical damage- and gaining 4 energy besides.

I averaged 130 DPS on Master of Damage over 3 minutes. This is competitive, if not better, than almost any MS/DB build, and remember that it is sustained damage, the kind that Chthon says MS/DB typically performs better at.

I think MS/DB just got served.

EDIT: that was at r3 asuran.

BlackSephir · Sep 27, 2009, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by syphonus

WoTA isn't being used for IAS at all. It's for the additional +22% crit chance, assuming 13 in CS.

Critical Eye gives you additiona crit chance and energy (if you really need it with zealous daggers) and doesn't take away your elite slot. And no, taking WoTA AND Crit Eye is stupid, you already have a huge chance for crits even if you're running 12 daggers, 12 critical strikes and crit agi without WoTA or Crit Eye.
Crits from daggers aren't so sweet, they only serve energy management and keeping up enchants like Crit Agi or Crit Defenses.

AtomicMew · Sep 27, 2009, 10:10 PM // 22:10

The math is obvious, and there's really no reason to do "testing" at all. It should be clear that MS/DB comes out on top in an equilibrium situation. The recharge on FF is 3, after all.

You just need to do some actual play testing and you will have your answer. Foes usually only last one chain. JS + FF arrives at the first DB faster than GPS with an extra hit for more single target damage.

For targets that last more than one chain, either Temple Strike of Golden Skull Strike completely negate the downside while adding shutdown that MS/DB can't bring to the table.

Yes, MS/DB IS outdated, since MS does not add any significant advantage to the bar. It's quite ridiculous how much more powerful the JS+FF+DB + free elite combo is.

syphonus · Sep 27, 2009, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

The math is obvious, and there's really no reason to do "testing" at all. It should be clear that MS/DB comes out on top in an equilibrium situation. The recharge on FF is 3, after all.

It isn't very clear at all, at least as far as single targets are concerned. What I've seen is that JS/FF performs consistently better.

Carinae · Sep 27, 2009, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Temple Strike is too expensive. It's ridiculous to spend 15e to blind/daze a target as a frontliner, especially since there are so many other and cheaper ways to apply blind/daze from the midline.

Locusts Fury doesn't add significant damage, even though it looks like it should. When testing JS+FF+DB, it bumped the MoD scores from 208 to 226.

Flashing Blades IS nice. Besides the obvious evasion and counter-damage, it's a stance, so it doesn't stutter your chain when applied.

Moebius Strike. Yea, keep it. Everyone seems to be forgetting that MS is a +33 damage skill itself. It's the fastest way to cycle DBs and gives you the ability to pump them out against hardened targets. Just use JS+FF as the lead-in. This solution offers a number of advantages:

Faster entry into DB/MS
Avoids the 3s recharge on FF
Does not frontend the damage, allowing more DBs
Still viable without MS if you need to swap elites for a zone

So really, it comes down to this: Which lead-in combo do you use with DB/MS? High-Speed (JS+FF) or High Damage (GFox+GFang)

Despite the obvious synergy on paper of the JS+FF combo, I'm not convinced that it's that advantageous in actual application. GFox+GFang does take single targets down faster and that alone is pure gold, especially when you're trying to get melees off your backline. In that case, you don't CARE about cycling DBs because the penalty for losing the backline is greater than the advantage of optimal performance under ideal situations.

RadaArashi · Sep 28, 2009, 01:04 AM // 01:04

I'd still prefer to carry Sneak Attack, Exhausting Assault/Golden Fang Strike, Moebius Strike, Death Blossom for harder areas.

AtomicMew · Sep 28, 2009, 03:03 AM // 03:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Temple Strike is too expensive. It's ridiculous to spend 15e to blind/daze a target as a frontliner, especially since there are so many other and cheaper ways to apply blind/daze from the midline.

The point is, you have a free elite, whereas your midliners (heroes) likely can be put to better use. Remember that everything comes with an opportunity cost. The opportunity cost of taking TS instead of MS is very, very marginal.

15e is NOT too expensive. You don't need to use it every time.

Also, when you can find a way to apply blind with a midliner that DOESNT involve an ele, let me know.

Quote:

Moebius Strike. Yea, keep it. Everyone seems to be forgetting that MS is a +33 damage skill itself. It's the fastest way to cycle DBs and gives you the ability to pump them out against hardened targets.

MS is good for sustained damage, but against "hardened targets", (e.g. healer balls) TS will negate far more HP than DB by way of shutdown.

Furthermore, NOT using MS actually provides (quite nearly) EXACTLY the same single target DPS. (You get the same number of hits in at the same time). Taking WOTA or even locust's fury instead of MS will automatically get you more single target DPS.

Improvavel · Sep 28, 2009, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I'll do them for you.[*]Flashing Blades. Passive defense, plus offense. "Offense, how?" you ask. Spam SY! and you should get lots of aggro, which translates into lots of damage from Flashing Blades.

This keeps popping up on the forums, but is it true?

Does AI check +armor bonus? Can it differentiate from lets say a warrior with a shield vs a warrior with a hammer?

Does Ai check armor modifiers like cracked armor?

I don't remember having cracked armor and suddenly becoming the target.

I don't recall being with a SY! char and suddenly shout SY! and see everyone leaving their targets alone and come after me.

I don't remember casting a +armor skill on someone, like SoR, and see a mob leaving that target alone and go after someone else.

I do recall quite often entering aggro range with my monk to cast a skill on a front liner and see half of the enemy mob coming after me, though, SY! or no SY!.

Carinae · Sep 28, 2009, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

The point is, you have a free elite, whereas your midliners (heroes) likely can be put to better use. Remember that everything comes with an opportunity cost. The opportunity cost of taking TS instead of MS is very, very marginal.

You don't need to apply blind or daze as a frontliner, EVER. Name one place in PvE where single target blind is awesomesauce. NONE. Especially with a sin throwing SY.

There are a few places where dazed comes in handy, namely against HM Ele bosses. Deep Freeze and Sandstorm especially. In ALL cases, it's better to use BHA than have a frontliner run all the way in to apply it. BHA also lasts longer and can be extended even further with a weapon swap, which a ranger can do more easily without affecting party DPS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

15e is NOT too expensive. You don't need to use it every time.

15e out of a pool of 25e is too expensive. It's not your job to debuff. You need to deal damage, which takes energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Also, when you can find a way to apply blind with a midliner that DOESNT involve an ele, let me know.

Ranger
Throw Dirt
Dust Trap
Smoke Trap

Mesmer
Ineptitude
Signet of Midight

Ritualist
Blind Was Mingson
Shadowsong
Weapon of Shadow
Rupture Soul

Plus 3 PvE skills

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Taking WOTA

Chance-to-Critical stacks multiplicatively just like HRT/HCT mods. The extra 13% from WOTA is 1.13x your current chance to crit. Given that your IAS is already maxed by Crit Agility, that makes WOTA a dreadful choice of elite skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

or even locust's fury instead of MS will automatically get you more single target DPS.

Locust's Fury ONLY affect auto-attacks. It does not affect skills. Most of your attacks will be skills since that's where you deal DPS. In reference to this thread, LF barely affects the total damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

This keeps popping up on the forums, but is it true?

It used to be true, but the AI has been adjusted many times since the olden times.

It's possible it only checks base armor too.

It's possible it's an urban legend at this point.

RadaArashi · Sep 28, 2009, 06:10 AM // 06:10

90% of the time people bring Minion masters to PvE so, any armor difference made due to Save Yourselves is neglible because the AI will be targetting the minions instead

syphonus · Sep 28, 2009, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Chance-to-Critical stacks multiplicatively just like HRT/HCT mods. The extra 13% from WOTA is 1.13x your current chance to crit. Given that your IAS is already maxed by Crit Agility, that makes WOTA a dreadful choice of elite skill.

The point isn't that WoTA is a great elite choice. The point is that if you take it, it out-performs MS in any situation, DPS wise, except for sustained multiple target damage. The fact that WoTA only adds ~10 DPS means that if you opt not to take it your free elite is that much sweeter.

AtomicMew · Sep 28, 2009, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

There are a few places where dazed comes in handy, namely against HM Ele bosses. Deep Freeze and Sandstorm especially. In ALL cases, it's better to use BHA than have a frontliner run all the way in to apply it. BHA also lasts longer and can be extended even further with a weapon swap, which a ranger can do more easily without affecting party DPS.

And also against multiple healers, which is always the biggest problem. Don't ignore the fact that against healers, daze will negate more HP than a damage elite. You're right that BHA is superior, but taking BHA requires an extra hero slot, whereas you're hardly losing anything by taking temple strike. Again, opportunity cost is a very important concept.

Quote:

15e out of a pool of 25e is too expensive. It's not your job to debuff. You need to deal damage, which takes energy.

It's NOT too expensive. All your energy skills are basically free thanks to CS, with the exception of Asura scan. The chain actually nets a positive energy flow. Even if it were a problem, all you need to do is auto-attack a few times. just try it out...

Quote:

Ranger
Throw Dirt
Dust Trap
Smoke Trap

Mesmer
Ineptitude
Signet of Midight

Ritualist
Blind Was Mingson
Shadowsong
Weapon of Shadow
Rupture Soul

None of those I would EVER consider bringing on a hero. You're lying if you say you would. I mean, dust trap??? Smoke trap? Honestly, now....

Quote:

Chance-to-Critical stacks multiplicatively just like HRT/HCT mods. The extra 13% from WOTA is 1.13x your current chance to crit. Given that your IAS is already maxed by Crit Agility, that makes WOTA a dreadful choice of elite skill.

Locust's Fury ONLY affect auto-attacks. It does not affect skills. Most of your attacks will be skills since that's where you deal DPS. In reference to this thread, LF barely affects the total damage.

Missing the point completely. We KNOW how these skills work, tyvm.

The point isn't that WoTA is a great elite choice. The point is that if you take it, it out-performs MS in any situation, DPS wise, except for sustained multiple target damage. The fact that WoTA only adds ~10 DPS means that if you opt not to take it your free elite is that much sweeter.

Carnivorous Cupcake · Sep 28, 2009, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Taking WoTA is the same as taking Locust's. You have the same chance to crit on both auto-attacks you have between blossom chains as you have of double striking with them except with WoTA you also have more chance of scoring a crit with your attacls and that adds even more domage.

Anyways, I prefer Moebius Strike. 1/2 activation lead makes you more flexible at target swapping and MS makes up for long run blossom spammage.

Chthon · Sep 28, 2009, 10:06 PM // 22:06

After some further thought....

1. Re: JS+FF+DB+Random Elite vs Gfox+GFang+DB+MS
In terms of damage, the JS... bar is going to be strictly better when one chain is sufficient to kill most monsters, and strictly worse when 2 or more chains are needed.
Even when 2 or more chains are needed, the damage is not very much worse, so it's conceivable that you might gain a strong enough non-damage benefit from your elite for it to be better overall. (That said, assassins have a pretty weak menu of elites...)

2. Re: FF+JS+DB+MS vs Gfox+GFang+DB+MS
The +damage over time (@ 15 for easy numbers) looks like this:

Code:

JS+FF	DB	MS	DB
+35	+125	+160	+250

GFox	GFang	DB	MS
+30	+130	+220	+255

As you can see, there's a couple of interesting things here:

You need another buff like Asuran Scan for the JS... bar to catch up at all.
The JS... bar backloads a significant portion of its damage on the second DB. If you've got a bunched mob where you really want more DB's, this is excellent. If you just want to kill a single target quickly, not so much.

3. Re: WotA

I find it very, very hard to believe that WotA is giving a difference of 10DPS. The difference between 0% crit and 100% crit should be (7+17)/2 = 12 per hit and 17*sqrt2 ~= 24/hit, for a difference of 12 per hit, so with the JS... chain doing 4 hits in 3.33 sec, that should be ~14 DPS. If 14DPS is the difference between 0% crit and 100% crit, and WotA is going to boost your crit chance by no more than 20% (much less actually because of the way crit stacking works), then it ought to give no more than a 3DPS increase. I suggest you repeat your DoM tests more carefully.

4. Re: Locust Fury

For those who don't understand how double strikes work, this skill would only affect the 2 auto attacks per cycle, essentially making them into 3 auto attacks. That's only going to be worthwhile if you're running buffs stacked sky high.

5.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

This keeps popping up on the forums, but is it true?

Does AI check +armor bonus?

Yes, it does. However, armor is only 1 factor who gets attacked. Proximity, in-range-ness, and (probably) already-my-target-ness are factors with stronger weights; and health is a factor of equal weight. You're not going to see melees break off from a 160-170 AL monk hench to go after a 121-131 AL shielded warrior on the basis of armor alone. There'd have to be a significant health difference, or the monk kiting out of range with the warrior close nearby. You're much more likely to draw the attention of ranged attackers and melees that have lost their previous target (got KD'ed, target died, target kited away, etc.). If you'd like to see SY drawing fire to you in practice, stick Flashing Blades on your bar and take a run through Destruction's Depths or Arachni's Lair keeping an eye on the ranged attackers. Flashing Blades should give you visual feedback on whose attention you got.

AtomicMew · Sep 29, 2009, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. Re: JS+FF+DB+Random Elite vs Gfox+GFang+DB+MS
In terms of damage, the JS... bar is going to be strictly better when one chain is sufficient to kill most monsters, and strictly worse when 2 or more chains are needed.
Even when 2 or more chains are needed, the damage is not very much worse, so it's conceivable that you might gain a strong enough non-damage benefit from your elite for it to be better overall. (That said, assassins have a pretty weak menu of elites...)

If you are talking about AoE DPS, then you are right. But if you are only considering single target DPS, you are wrong. The difference is almost completely negligable and continues to be negligable indefinitely, no matter how many MS/DB chains are used.

1) It was pointed out several times that MS/DB is equivalent to the full cycle of JS/FF/DB for single target DPS.
2)Then, it is enough to show that GFox + GFang does less DPS than MS/DB cycling (= JS/FF/DB).

>GFox + GFang does 2 hits with 130 bonus damage in 1.8 sec for a rate of 72 bonus dmg + 1.1 hits/sec

>MS/DB cycle does 4.3 hits with 119 bonus damage in 2.9 seconds for a rate of 41 bonus + 1.4 hits/sec

Taking the difference shows that they are EXACTLY equivalent if auto-attacks can hit for ~100. JS+FF+DB comes out on top if auto-attacks hit for more. That's obviously NOT stretching with all the ridiculous buffs available.

Realistically in a H/H setting, GFox+GFang will come out to ~10-20 extra damage TOTAL PER FOE regardless of how many MS/DB cycles you take on it.

Again, extremely marginal.

Quote:

3. Re: WotA

I find it very, very hard to believe that WotA is giving a difference of 10DPS. The difference between 0% crit and 100% crit should be (7+17)/2 = 12 per hit and 17*sqrt2 ~= 24/hit, for a difference of 12 per hit, so with the JS... chain doing 4 hits in 3.33 sec, that should be ~14 DPS. If 14DPS is the difference between 0% crit and 100% crit, and WotA is going to boost your crit chance by no more than 20% (much less actually because of the way crit stacking works), then it ought to give no more than a 3DPS increase. I suggest you repeat your DoM tests more carefully.

And I suggest you do your math more carefully. You need to take into account EVERYTHING, because each effect is amplified multiplicatively. That includes DR bonuses, damage shifts and Asura scan, which is probably most important.

According to your own math, JS+FF+DB cycle does 6.6 hits/cycle (3.33 sec)

Code:

A critical hit with base damage does:
17*2^(24/40)*1.38*1.75 = 62

A non-critical averages:
12*2^(4/40)*1.38*1.75 = 31

Critical Chance:
W/o WOTA: .40
W/  WOTA: .58

Average dmg difference per cycle 
  = 31*0.18 * 6.6 = 36.8

Average DPS increase per time:
  = 36.8/3.33 = +11 DPS

+11 DPS is theoretical, so the previous poster's +10 DPS from WOTA is actually pretty much in line.

At any rate, this is pretty much missing the point. No one is seriously suggesting WOTA as a decent elite, I think. Rather, they are using it to show the inferiority of MS. As far as single target DPS, WOTA is strictly superior to MS regardless of any lead + offhand you could take.

Carinae · Sep 29, 2009, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

And also against multiple healers, which is always the biggest problem. Don't ignore the fact that against healers, daze will negate more HP than a damage elite.

No, because healers are not damage dealers, so dazing him doesn't affect the damage you are taking. Now, your response is going to be "I'm taking about him healing his damage-dealing party members, dummy." And my response is that if you are attacking the monk he isn't healing his party members, he's healing himself, and so is the other healer.

It's entirely a red herring anyway, because the classic GFox...MS bar doesn't have any trouble dealing with multiple healers at all. Unless they are running Aegis/Shield Guardian or have Blind in the party, in which case TS has the same problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

You're right that BHA is superior, but taking BHA requires an extra hero slot, whereas you're hardly losing anything by taking temple strike. Again, opportunity cost is a very important concept.

No. Daze is only truly useful against HM ele bosses, in which case you want BHA so you can apply it at range. You never want to run in against a ele boss, especially on a Sin, to apply Daze.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

It's NOT too expensive. All your energy skills are basically free thanks to CS, with the exception of Asura scan. The chain actually nets a positive energy flow. Even if it were a problem, all you need to do is auto-attack a few times. just try it out...

...and Crit Eye, and Crit Agility.

Now factor in the second monk (and rest of party): Aegis, Shield Guardian, Blind, Blurred Vision, etc. Whiff, whiff, whiff, now you can't even target swap effectively.

I could see it being useful against a HM Monk boss, with or without a second healer. But I think it's a waste to use the human-bar elite skill for the one special situation you might occasionally find in the odd zone.

Of course, if your leaning on Discord as your hero-elites (which is how I take your "free hero slot" comment) then you have larger problems at hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

None of those I would EVER consider bringing on a hero. You're lying if you say you would. I mean, dust trap??? Smoke trap? Honestly, now....

1) You never, ever need Blind in PvE in the first place.

2) Throw Dirt is acceptable if you want to pretend that you need a targeted Blind.

3) Blind Was Mingson is ok as a defensive option. (ie: blinds all the melees that are harassing your backline)

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

The point isn't that WoTA is a great elite choice. The point is that if you take it, it out-performs MS in any situation, DPS wise, except for sustained multiple target damage.

Flashing Blades would generate more DPS boost than WoTA, and have and SOLID additional effect as well.

Even occasionally getting a second MS->DB, which happens a heck of a lot more (many times in a VQ) than your TS scenario, would more than make up for the lost single target damage. And that completely neglects the fact that GFox+GFang takes single-targets down much faster than JS+FF.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

The fact that WoTA only adds ~10 DPS means that if you opt not to take it your free elite is that much sweeter.

Flashing Blades would be better all-around. For the JS+FF combo, WoTA is a poor elite choice, period. So, is LF.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

The JS... bar backloads a significant portion of its damage on the second DB. If you've got a bunched mob where you really want more DB's, this is excellent. If you just want to kill a single target quickly, not so much.

This is also my experience in running JS+FF....you will very much miss the single-target take-down ability of GFox+GFang. Stuff Happens, and you WILL have to clean the melees off your backline on a somewhat regular basis. For this not uncommon scenario, the classic GFox...MS bar excels. Not only does it deal more damage faster, you have a good chance to get off a few DBs against the melees, speeding the process up even more.

Now, everyone listen, I don't hate JS+FF. I think it's a viable alternnative to the classic MS bar. But it doesn't outweigh said bar either, and situationally, you'll miss the classic. If you just sick of running the old bar, give this a shot, it works and it's different.

I have been running Chthon's JS+FF combo a lot this week, BOTH in VQs and vs MoD. Obviously, it would be cool to free up the elite for a sin bar. But I have yet to find an elite that matched the all-around ability of MS. The strong takedown of GFox+GFang is most definitely missed when not there, and you do get the second DB off MS on a reasonable basis.

Temple Strike - (~EH) expensive, highly situational, doesn't bring much all-around. Poor use of elite skill.

Locust's Fury - (BAD) trivial single target damage boost. Poor use of elite skill.

WoTA - (BAD) trivial single target damage boost. Poor use of elite skill.

Flashing Blades - (GOOD) At last, a viable elite for JS+FF. Survivability is good. Deals some damage back.

Moebius - (DEPENDS) not needed for JS+FF, required for GFox. When paired with GFox is still best all-around option.

Coward! - (???) might be a useful choice for a JS+FF Sin. This might be better than TS (@traversc) provided you can kill the target before it gets up. Cheaper, better shutdown, works against any class. Also lets you keep /W for SY!

Other - (???) completely undiscussed so far. Would have to be something that works reasonable well with 3 attribute points though.

syphonus · Sep 29, 2009, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

3. Re: WotA

I find it very, very hard to believe that WotA is giving a difference of 10DPS. The difference between 0% crit and 100% crit should be (7+17)/2 = 12 per hit and 17*sqrt2 ~= 24/hit, for a difference of 12 per hit, so with the JS... chain doing 4 hits in 3.33 sec, that should be ~14 DPS. If 14DPS is the difference between 0% crit and 100% crit, and WotA is going to boost your crit chance by no more than 20% (much less actually because of the way crit stacking works), then it ought to give no more than a 3DPS increase. I suggest you repeat your DoM tests more carefully.

I have done so several times already. For the sake of this thread, though, I will do it a few more times and post the results.

This here is without WotA.

This is with WotA.

As you can see there is a hefty 15 points between the two.

From the extent of the tests I took yesterday, I noticed an undeniable margin of at least 10 DPS. And that is conservative. If you still don't believe me you'll really have to try it yourself.

@Carinae: I now firmly believe that MS is actually more useless of an elite than WotA in the majority of areas. The only reason it would be acceptable, in my opinion, is the one I stated before and Cupcake reiterated: for long-run blossom spammage.

BUT:
How often do you find yourself hitting balled-up mobs with 3+ DB's?
Compare this with how often it takes less than that. Or how often you're hitting a single target. In either of these cases, MS is outdone.

I'm still not saying that WoTA is the best option, though. Just that MS isn't.

EDIT: somehow missed traversc's entire post. Sorry buddy.

Quote:

At any rate, this is pretty much missing the point. No one is seriously suggesting WOTA as a decent elite, I think. Rather, they are using it to show the inferiority of MS. As far as single target DPS, WOTA is strictly superior to MS regardless of any lead + offhand you could take.

Bobby2 · Sep 29, 2009, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

At any rate, this is pretty much missing the point. No one is seriously suggesting WOTA as a decent elite, I think. Rather, they are using it to show the inferiority of MS. As far as single target DPS, WOTA is strictly superior to MS regardless of any lead + offhand you could take.

You know I love you, but sometimes...

WotA is superior to MS at single target DPS -when enemies die of 1 chain-. Makes sense, since it's a buff that applies to Lead-Offhand, marginal as it may be. So what you're saying is that MS doesn't do crap to boost your Lead+Offhand. Big deal?

Look, you can run almost any Blossom combo in PvE and have wimpy stuff dying within 1 chain. It's stuff that doesn't that warrant the usage of MS. Granted, now with Scan and SoH and whathaveyou those enemies have become increasingly rare, but at least MS has a function outside just letting you deal with trivial stuff a little bit faster.

tl;dr: To each his own.